Dearest Whitefolk
These past couple of days have been really interesting in terms of race, and I thought I'd take a moment to speak to my whitefolk readers. After posting the vomitously moronic Adrienne Curry post, a dear friend mentioned that she hates talking about race because she feels "I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't". And the only thing I can properly respond to that is "well, yeah, but do it anyway, okay?"
Another reader-friend of mine commented with this:
Ms. Stix, at what point do you think white people chiming in on this subject crosses the line from being supportive to pandering and suffering from white guilt? I always feel like I should just keep my mouth shut, although obviously not enough for me do it. Do you even want our support?
To which I replied:
Of course! I yearn for white participation because ultimately it's going to be the actions of white people that decide the future of race relations in this country.
I always encourage debate and questioning because I know as a white person the whole subject of race is very touchy and extremely volatile, but I also need you as a white person to understand the luxury in being able to choose whether or not to be involved in race discussion and that many POC experience everyday what you can make the decision not to.
People think of white privilege as a curse, but it doesn't have to be that way. Instead of fearing it, use it. When you see someone being willfully ignorant or racist, make the decision to educate them, or to level the playing field.
That's what these discussions are for. Not to yell at whitefolk (well, not just to yell at whitefolk, heh), but so that you all know what's going on inside and hopefully can find a spot to relate and make changes.
I know you've seen the brawls on my page (heh, again), but you have no idea how much I cherish the input.
One thing though is that being in control for so many years has caused an ingrained sense of entitlement in many white people in this country. So when they decide to start fighting racism a lot of times they:
a)try to dictate the terms and rules of the conversation (ADRIENNE CURRY SAYS THAT TO END RACISM WE SHOULD DO THIS!)
b)Become patronizing (OH POOR YOU! I WILL GIVE EVERY BLACK PERSON A JOB! (which, not the point. We don't want you to give every black person a job, we want you to not deny a job to someone because they are black, there's a difference)).
c)try to rank minority concerns (THE NATIVE AMERICANS HAVE IT SO MUCH WORSE!)
d)try to appropriate (YO YO HOMIE!! FREE RIGHTS FOR E'ERYONE! NAW MEAN?!?)
e)try to homogenize (I DO NOT SEE COLOR!! I DON'T!)
Basically, just be cool, know that not everyone is going to support and like you, but as long as your heart is in the right place you'll be pretty good.
Heh, and keep reading my blog, because this SURE won't be the last time you hear from me on the matter!
And I wanted to talk with you today and really elaborate on what I mean when I say the above. You know I love lists so here it is.
1) I don't hate YOU or think YOU are a bad person
I don't know you. Even if I e-know you, or we met offline or have talked on the phone, I still probably don't know you. In fact, this is mostly not about YOU at all, it is about the systematic abuse and neglect at the hands of an institution that was allowed to develop and conquer simply because of the color of their skin.
The part that is about YOU is the part that relates to how you treat POC in your daily lives. Are you engaging in conversations about race from a perspective of learning? Are you actively participating in the act of not being racist? Or are you turning your head and ignoring it, and pretending to be colorblind? I can't see you and therefore can't judge you, but I do know what I've encountered and experienced. It's your responsibility to figure out whether you were the cause of it.
2) You have white privilege whether you want it or not.
And yes, it frustrates the hell out of POC that ultimately the future of race relations rests in your hands. But what's more infuriating? When white people claim they don't have privilege, and won't use it to combat racism. God dangit people, you were born with the luxury of being white. Of caring about race only when you really want to. Of having the world on a silver platter in your hands and you want to get rid of that because it makes you feel guilty? Your ancestors messed up and-
WAIT! Stop right there. Because I know what you're going to do. Let's streamline:
2a) If you are American and/or in America and you speak with an American accent, and you also identify and look to be of the Caucasoid race. YOU ARE WHITE!
"b-but, I'm Italian!"WHITE!
"Yo, my mama who raised me was black and my girl-"
WHITE!
"My parents just came to this country like 40 years ago and-"
WHITE!
"I'm the only white person in my city and they call me the Lone Crack-"
WHITE!
This is a country built on stereotypes people, deal with it. You are going to be unfairly grouped with people who look like you and accused of atrocities to which you nor your family may have been party.
WELCOME TO BEING BLACK! DEAL WITH IT!
And PLEASE deal with it.
Your ancestors messed up, and now you're living with the consequences, but the discrimination you may face sporadically for being white is nothing compared to the trash that is dumped daily on the average POC. Realize that, and then shape your experiences and actions to reflect that realization. That you have control and you can use it to make this place a better more color appreciative society. Which brings me to my next point:
3. You're not colorblind. I'm not colorblind. And we shouldn't be.
Here's a little mini rant I wrote about the subject:
And yes, I try to spit, piss on, and light fire to every instance of I AM COLORBLINDEZZZZZZ!!! I see. I swear that is the most asinine, insulting thing I've ever heard in life."Umm, you know those 400+ years of degradation, abuse, humiliation, and pain your people suffered from? And you know how you're making strides to overcome that and have built this country on your backs and contributed several inventions and advances to our home? Yeah, I'm going to claim the successes now, and we're just going to forget about the bad stuff, ‘kay? Now let's hug!"
BLECCH BLECCH BLECCH BLECCH!
I don't want you to discriminate against me because of the color of my skin, but you'd better darn well notice and realize how my actions and reactions are effected because of it.
There's a difference between being colorblind and color appreciative. To be colorblind is to tell someone you don't see their history, you don't see their culture, their spirit. To be colorblind is to tell someone that you have the control and ability to homogenize an entire group of people based on your comfort level. That you don't care what they feel about the matter, but this is how you think it should be and therefore how it is. To be colorblind is to bathe in the sweat of white privilege and insist that you are dry as a bone. It's denial and avoidance at it's most juvenile level and it's being touted as the way to end racism for adults?
While you're being colorblind, perhaps you could also stick your fingers in your ears and stomp your feet? Did you know that when you close your eyes the whole world disappears?! It does when you're colorblind!
But when you're color appreciative, it means you recognize my history, the beauty and also the pain of my people. You realize that even though you personally may have had no part it in, simply because of the color of your skin you benefit because of those who do and you make your decisions based on how to empower rather than disembowel.
That's not saying you should hire every POC, it's saying that you shouldn't discount someone immediately because of racial factors. It also means creating a scale that makes sense. If "Peter" who is white comes from an Ivy League school and applies for the same job as "Rob" who is black and went to a Community College but also has 5+ years of related service, don't automatically excuse Rob. You'll know by his resume and interview whether or not he had access to Ivy League funding or education and in the end he may be the most qualified.
4. Fighting racism doesn't make you comfortable.
It won't. It will be hard as hell, check out Shannon. Specifically check out her last few posts and read the comments. No, not the ones agreeing with her, but the ones blasting her for talking about her son who passed. Or the ones calling her an asshole. How about the one where the guy comes out to declare that he is 21 and white and will say the n-word if he wants to? Read some of the entries about how not a day goes by that someone doesn't tell her black husband that he must miss "not being near a chicken joint" since he moved up North.
Read the comments from my friend ![[info]](http://stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif){kind=small}
happycapt whose daughter was called racist even when she was trying to be specifically not racist to help a fellow teammate. Read the comments to my friend croupier who was told she was just angry, and loud, and lacked substance.
Racism is not easy, and it didn't start just one day. It was a long arduous process and it will be even more so trying to remove the stigma and truly fighting it. You're going to get crapped on not only by the people you're fighting for, but also the people you're fighting against. You won't feel good about yourself, you'll question your motives, you'll see new parts of people you love that you never wished you had. You'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll hate waking up in the morning and you'll second guess every look that's thrown your way.
thegirliscrazy said this:
White people need to realize that racism is not an all-or-nothing issue, and hitting one nail on the head has nothing to do with the hundred thousand nails left to hammer in. Yelling "But I'm not racist!" means nothing to me. I'm not racist either, but I still have to deal with it; why do you get to be exempt? You don't have cancer or HIV or diabetes, does this mean that you are opposed to finding a cure for them? There is no one size fits all 'cure' for racism; it is a 12 (24? 36? 100?) step program and you have to go through ALL the steps in order to work through it. A lot of people don't want to put in the energy to work through it.
And I couldn't agree more. It's a process, and one that's not going to happen without participation and cooperation from BOTH sides. You're going to feel like you're between a rock and a hard place, but:
5. You should do it anyway.
It's the right thing to do, and the right thing is never easy.
Additionally, I know how whitefolk can be, so I've anticipated some questions (cut for your pleasure):
I understand what you're saying, but I still don't think the n-word should exist. It should be wiped from our history, and completely forgotten
Then by all means please do. Make sure that it is wiped from your conscious and your family's and friend's. Just don't tell me as a black person, that I'm responsible for your use of the word. Right now the only reason you want to say it is because we've told you not to and yet still say it ourselves.
At this point in history our usage of the n-word is completely unimpactful. The power of pain and disgrace associated with the word comes from white usage. There are several blacks who refuse to have it uttered around them by anyone, but not because black people using it hurts them, but because it invokes a reaction from when a white person said it to them and broke them to their core. It's not "our" word, it's yours and we took it and appropriated it as a way of healing and dealing with it as it were. You still have ownership and you still have the responsibility and power over it. Get rid of it first, and once the pain that comes with the word is filtered out, we may find it gets phased because it's no longer necessary.
Let's find out!
I understand that you don't think the concept of [Heritage] History Months or TV stations are inherently racist, but you have to admit they do foster segregation, right?
No, and the reason employs the "process" method from before. White networks (all the others, because we're being real here) are currently not representing minorities in a satisfying manner. So to get minorities on TV that are representative of actual minorities we start first with integrating our own stations.
Let's say that without minority based television the current networks account for 5% minorities (which is giving a lot of credit). Now within that 5%- 1% is Asian who are kung-fu artists or chefs or nerdy computer geeks. 2% are Latino and are cha chi mamas, chefs, sneaky hotel maids, or used for comedic effect because of their accent or inability to understand English. 2.5% are blacks who are maids, sassy mammies, drug dealers, gang members, sidekicks, sluts and whores, or Julia. The final .5% are random minorities, usually consisting of Indians or Native Americans who are used respectively to be laughed at, or to make us think or tell us that a station just went off-air.
So we include Univision, BET, LOGO (and even to an extent We and Lifetime), and other stations to give the perspective of minority America from a minority point of view. The networks start to pay attention and start writing more realistic and actual representations. We start getting bigger roles, maybe even headlining. But those advances don't start happening until we deliver a clear message of who we are. Unfortunately BET's programming has left much to be desired, but you can see the changes that it's original impact made on programming across the board, if only in the name of competition!
The channels are not restricting you from participating. My good friend Christo had this to say about what really annoyed him in Adrienne's rant:
I know we've discussed this whole thing ad nauseam but this is the crux of what I find sad about her blog entry. That she can't think of ANY way of "doing" Black History Month that doesn't exclude whites. That labeling it "Black History" automatically means she can't take an interest in what's going on or trying to find out what lessons can be learned, when clearly she's the sort of person who needs to learn most of all. That she's taking the use of the word "black" in there to deliberately not involve herself because OH MY GOD THAT'S SO DISGUSTING AND RACIST.
And that's the gist of why I think those channels/months are okay. They've never excluded, but they purposefully showcase what wasn't properly represented before. GLAAD just released their annual statement saying there weren't enough gays on tv. Are we a) going to disagree and b) going to call them heterophobic because of it? For being right and trying to do something to level the playing field?
Well I choose to do nothing, it doesn't mean that I'm adding to racism.
Inaction or apathy are some of the greatest opponents of progress. To do nothing willfully is to actively make a decision to not only not contribute to the fight against racism, but to validate similar inaction in those around you.
So like, what do I do? Sign up for my local NAACP chapter? Memorize and recite the Rites of Passage? What the hell do you want?
First of all, calm down! Secondly, you basically hit on what we wanted with your question. We want you to ASK! And then listen and process the answers. White people generally think they have the answer to everything which is why so many of them get painted with the white guilt/patronizing brush when they start campaigning for minority rights. Sit down and listen and learn before you come charging in with "ideas" and "plans" and "legislation".
Also, the easiest thing you can do to fight racism is to... wait for it... WAIT FOR IT!
NOT BE RACIST!
Well I do that anyway.
Do you? Have you really taken stock into how decisions effect others on this planet? Do you hang out with people who spout racist bile? Do you let it slide when one of your friends says the n-word? Have you stepped outside your circle at all or are all of your friends the same color/income bracket/age/sex as you? If not, then it's time to reexamine.
Why should I care? I don't even really care, you've told me I don't have to, why should I?
Because I care and you love me. And seriously, if you can't find a good reason to start, then use someone else's. Ultimately the end game of racism shouldn't be making you not feel guilty or feel better, but if that's the goal you're reaching for then by all means do some stretches first. Whatever it takes.
Umm, I'm all into semantics, right? So you seem to be factually mistaken about something in your post so I think I'm just going to discount the entire thing and do what I want, ‘kay?
Okay. Still makes you a jerk, but you're grown so do what you want.
I think you're taking this WAY too seriously. Everyone should just lighten up!
Yeah, not gonna happen anytime soon, at least on my blog. You'll be pleased to know though, that I've started several posts that I never finished because I was simply exhausted. And you're still a jerk.
Stop that. Stop being a jerk.
In conclusion, step out of your comfort zone, start questioning some norms, and get involved. And then pat yourself on the back for doing what you should have been doing all along.
Lord, let me press post and be done with this! I'm getting a headache. Until next time kiddies (or the first comment, which even hits the Yahoo! first)!
Love,
StickyKeys
Comments
Excellent Post sis... I really enjoyed it.
Thank you Kevin, I'm glad you enjoyed it. Please take time to rank it if you'd like.
You've written something here that's far more insightful and polite than I could on my best day. This almost makes up for your unseemly adoration of Justin Timberlake. Almost. :-P
I'm so glad it did, that was the point! ;)
I always rant like this on my blog and was pushed to post it over here and I'm so glad I did. I'm glad you were able to pull something from it and it gave you new things to ponder. Thanks for reading!
Okay. I typed up a long response to this, but Internet Explorer crashed and I lost it. Meh.
Okay. Im white. You are a POC (using your own nomenclature). Lets talk about it.
I have found the quickest way to get past the natural process of generalization and stereotyping (of anything - gender, age, race, dress, etc ...) is to get to know someone for who they *are*.
You went first. I will go now briefly...
In my personal experience, I have fairly non-standard relationships with POC. And this is fairly apparent to most people. And it infuriates a lot of PC white people. And it infuriates overly sensitive POC, who just do not *know* me.
So I am stuck in between a rock and a hard place, until anyone gets to know me. What do you think is my best bet to overcome this? Its fairly easy to try and get at it with PC White people. But the other camp ... well, its an uphill battle.
Our basic approach seems to be ... No Holds Barred. Racial jokes all over the place towards each other. Identifying on commonalities in experiences. Discussing what it is like to be a POC. What it is like to be a conscious, but different, whitey. Sometimes, being more knoweledgeable and into cultural aspects of POC's history then they are. Other times not.
Its hard to describe, cept to say ... its like race is so indirectly intertwined into everything we do together. But not in a real discriminatory way.
Define "fairly non-standard" for me. And why do you feel it's infuriating to certain groups? Do you use the n-word in social context? Do you strive not to be PC? And how do you define "overly sensitive"?
Just in general life a good rule of thumb is to read the room around you and then write yourself in it. It's not about changing who you are, but about allowing others to experience you through their own lenses. And that takes really considering their feelings and behaviors.
Just as you said you receive hate from people who don't "know" you yet, they're also probably frustrated that you may be demanding immediate acceptance, but not giving it. I hate that IE ate your original comment, but hopefully it won't next time because I'd love to discuss this with you.
I could write an entire blog about all the racism I encounter.
That really depends, and it's going to have a lot to do with how you interact with others outside your group. Familiarity can bring a lot of walls down but only within your social group. If you try to carry over, or demand participation out of a group of people then you'll find yourself in hot water. Also, if you have someone outside your group ask you to stop using slurs or telling racial jokes, it would behove you to heed to them because of the effects of your language.
No, I do not use the "N-word" in about any context. I find it to be derogatory, even if used between POC, as a coping mechanism.
I will say Black. Mostly because, well ... Americans of African Descent is too wordy, and screams of PCism. If someone respectfully asks me to adjust my word usage around them, I will almost always honor that request. Same goes for any race. (although I might accidentally roll my eyes a bit at some phrases the first time around).
And people can call me anything they want. Its not the word, its the tonality, intent and usage thats important to me. In general, I would rather have someone be up front and honest, instead of thinking stuff and putting on a friendly face. (this is my biggest problem with PCism - all the eggshell walking rings untrue).
I understand that I may come across as demanding immediate acceptance. But that is definitely not the intent. The intent is a simple - I am trying my best to not treat you any differently than I would treat anyone else. Whether I treat you better or worse will be defined as we get to know each other more. This goes beyond race (rich people, famous people, bosses, etc.)
However, I do try to *give* immediate acceptance. At the very least, at a higher level than most people. Yes. I believe in a Culture of Inclusion, with only a couple of rules:
1) Show up.
2) Want to be here.
3) Be Honest.
4) Do not take yourself or anyone else to seriously
"There's a difference between being colorblind and color appreciative."
Absolutely. You nailed it.
Again, thanks for writing this. Looking forward to reading more.
One time I had an irate customer on the phone and promised to come out and fix what my employee messed up. When I showed up he goes "Well hell, I thought you were white!"
Um... sorry?
Black is probably the least of the semantical vocab arguments, I wouldn't beat yourself up too badly about that. I say black all the time just like I say white, but even with the little eyeroll it's best that you do respect other's wishes to an extent. And the eyeroll probably helps, heh.
Yes, making sure you don't treat people different because of the color of their skin is optimal. However recognizing the behaviors of how they react may be because of the color of your skin and it's just important that you realize that. Otherwise you seem to be doing fine. I don't know you nor your situation perfectly, but I would suggest to keep on your current road and challenge yourself daily to view things from a multicultural point of view.
One of the bestes, weirdest race things happened when I was working at Hollywood video. One of my co-workers (who was obviously mixed with something, but evidently no one ever told her) was talking about how she was cheerleading in a local suburb highschool and someone shouted out "Nigger!" and she turned to them slowed and said defiantly,
"I'm WHITE!" and then turned around and walked off.
"He felt about [this] small!" and she was totally proud of herself.
Umm... thank you? For not only validating his hatred, but also being insulted by his confusing you with someone of color (WHICH BY THE WAY YOU TOTALLY ARE OMG!)?
Yeah, I just nodded and smiled and walked off.
It was 3 am on a Friday night in Phoenix. I was coming out of an AmPm. A POC walks right up to me and says,
"You are the *wrong* color to be walking around in this part of town at this time of night. I suggest you get out of here now, before things get serious, whiteboy."
I replied,
"Ya man I know this. I wouldnt even be here if my roommate didnt just get arrested for a DUI and have his car confiscated. And then, the cops told me to walk home and chuckled. Its a mile from my place and Im completely broke. So I have to walk, or hitchhike. But ... thanks for the heads up."
And this wasnt the only time when my physical safety was in danger (or implied to be) just because of the color of my skin. My white skin.
Its definitely odd, each and every time.
I've been there, except consider this. If I were in a similar position, and something had happened, do you think the police would be more apt to help you, or me? Do you think if a group of POC jumped you, they would get harder ramifications than if a group of white girls (or even black girls) jumped me?
Yes, he was wise to tell you of the danger, but that anger towards you for being white is purely retaliatory. They are mad at white people for injustices done to them. White people who hate POC hate them because they are POC and for little to no other reason.
I don't know, all I can say is keep your nose clean. There are going to be some double standards, but the life of a POC is clouded in double standards and we've lived with it for hundreds and hundreds of years. Whites aren't used to not getting their way in this country, so it's going to take some adjusting.
Along those lines... my friend met a black girl at college (yes, I say black, my black friends in college wouldn't let me call them anything else! haha) and when they met, the black girl says "Hi I'm [whatever her name was]! My friends back home call me Oreo. Because I'm black on the outside and white on the inside! Isn't that cute! HEEE HEEE!"
I've never met anyone who was offended by black (unless it was coupled by b*tch or bastard, natch). That may be because in my area we hear nigger, coon, tar baby, etc so we're actually happy if someone says black much less African American.
Anyhoo, the oreo thing drives me CRAZY! It's so completely soaked in stereotype and is nearly gross to me. I act really white to a lot of people and really black to a lot of white people so I've been called it all, but I'm still black, you know?
But if blackfolk want to call themselves oreos, then by all means, I won't stop them, I also won't be laughing ;)
That ep of Fresh Prince ws HILARIOUS!
I am a white woman, and have lived in a predominantly white town.
What people need to think about is that schools were JUST recently integrated, my parents remember it, it happened one generation ago. My Grandparents are kind of racist, it is embarrassing, My parents are a little less, me and my generation less than them, and I hope the next generation after me will be less still. It is going to take a long time to heal that gaping hole in our countrys soul. we just need to work on diluting this poison so it does not kill us.
yesterday I took a walk around my town, through allys and such. And there on somebodies garage was the N word, I was shocked and hurt. This is my community, I don't think this should be tolerated. On my walk today, I made it back there with my Mr. Clean magic eraser and scrubbed it off. I do not want that here.
Not to hijack your comment here, but this got me to thinking:
"I'm WHITE!" and then turned around and walked off.
"He felt about [this] small!" and she was totally proud of herself.
Umm... thank you? For not only validating his hatred, but also being insulted by his confusing you with someone of color (WHICH BY THE WAY YOU TOTALLY ARE OMG!)?
A few years back, I was reading this Black Enterprise article on Afro-Latinos in the US and their contribution to business and entertainment. (I'm not gonna lie. Gina Torres was on the front, so I had to get it.) And I noticed one Panamanian gentleman's story made me wonder about how people of African descent outside the US see African Americans.
After he had moved to the US as a teen, he talked about being in high school or college, and having someone call him the N-word in class. He, a self-identifing person of African descent, replied by saying, "I'm not a nigger. I was born in Panama." (Or something to that effect.) And he told this story with pride. Not as a memory about how far he's come since then. He spoke as if this distinction he made was an example of something to be proud of.
And I was wondering what he thought his assertion was supposed to mean. Did he actually think that the N-word is for Black Americans only? That the person calling him that was mistaken in their assessment because his slave ancestors were shipped to Central America instead of the US? Does he not know that if a truck full of Neo-Nazis pulled up beside him at a red light, he has just as much to be afraid of as the average black american male?
But I guess that whole mindset plays into the idea that non-US members of the African Diaspora better separate themselves from the AfAm community if they ever move within US borders and hope to suffer less discrimination. The problem with that, of course, is they won't. We know it, but many of them don't and consequently contribute to the institution of racism we're all fighting everyday.
Yeah, how do you tell someone who thinks that way that no one called you the N-word because of where you're from, they called you the N-word because your not-too-distant ancestors were from Africa? Would that revelation just make their heads implode? That slur isn't about culture at all. It's about "race," or the perception of it. That's why your homegirl got called out at the game and didn't even question her response to it.
What she and the brother from Panama need to wonder is why not being African-American or a self-identified African-American makes you feel less offended by that word?
"To be colorblind is to tell someone you don't see their history, you don't see their culture, their spirit. To be colorblind is to tell someone that you have the control and ability to homogenize an entire group of people based on your comfort level. That you don't care what they feel about the matter, but this is how you think it should be and therefore how it is."
Ummmm....you mean, like you did to white people by declaring that they are all just white? No matter their cultural background, no matter where they've lived and what kind of experiences they've had being white (and, actually, there are white people who have first-hand experience of racism, either because they have been a minority or have loved one--oh, yeah, even in America!), no matter if they are racist or not. It's a nation of stereotypes, right? So, I'm dealing with it. You look at my skin color and see a whole body of information that is absolutely false about me, personally.
I know, I get it. You see white, so you see sameness and privilege, like we all grew up in the suburbs and listen to ABBA. I daresay that makes you a racist.
Mmm. Unless they live in Japan. Or they're sharecroppers in the South, as my family was, and thus "white trash." Or they have half-black and other half-POC relatives of mysterious origin, as I do. Or unless the place they grew up was almost entirely Mexican, and the people doing the hiring and the renting and so forth only hire/rent to Mexicans, which happens quite a lot where I grew up. Huh...or about a hundred other exceptions I could think of. Not that it matters.
i'm taking a class right now on cultural diversity and all the stuff i'm learning could be summarized just by reading your post.
you're very eloquent and have organized thoughts. Sometimes people get so frustrated with the issue of race that their thoughts come out a jumbled mess but i could use your post as a study guide. haha
good luck in making a difference in the world
and although i'm half asian, I think i'm considered white
so i want you to know that you do have my support
and i do see that there is still a problem in this country
with race that is pervasive and scarily unnoticed.
and those people who try to say that there is no race problem
have a label- it's a form of ultra modern racism called CoBRA
(Colorblind racism)
In the meantime, I urge you to consider your plight from a regional level, and the contrast that to your privilege on a national level. Then consider the person of color's plight on a national level, and their bit of privilege in your comparatively small region.
Also consider the inherent racism in the word "white trash". The only reason there's the differential descriptive of "white" in there because "white" is not considered to be have the ability to be trash or outside the norm. Which is just and fair, but it's a normalcy that has not been afforded to many of the people of color in this nation.
More soon, and thank you for your thoughts!
I would suggest really going the extra step to show her good examples of positive African American contribution. She can't help her background and in time a lot of it will pass, but for now all you can do is continue to show her your love and let her know this is not normal behavior. Perhaps getting her involved in a Rites of Passage program or a local NAACP youth program? Sometimes local black churches have youth and after school programs designed to empower and teach young black kids about their heritage.
I would also suggest trying to speak with the boy's parents, as that kind of behavior is way out of line.
(And good for your daughter for socking him!) She's obviously got some fire in her, get her into kick boxing! ;)
Thanks for reading!
Yes, there's a very close link between feminism and racism (and to a much greater extent homophobia). And I agree, as it is you can't really understand the plight of a POC/woman/gay without being in their shoes so you shouldn't really try. What you should do is figure out how you current actions relate to their abuses. Are you doing what you can to alleviate the pressure? If yes, then keep on keepin' on, if no, then reevaluate and always continue to learn.
Thanks for reading, and you wonderful comment!
Yes, but your lifetime and the lifetimes of over 125 generations is hardly comparable. And that sucks and it's unfair but it's a part of the process in my opinion. Instead of wondering why life is so hard for you as a white person, you can look at the ways your whiteness is privileged and how to use that to make things equitable for everyone. You have the opportunity of experience of what it's like to be discriminated against because of your skin color and make a change.
Again though, there are several different kinds of Caucasians, that was never denied. However that distinction is very rarely afforded to people of color. They are either all Asians/Africans/Indians, etc, when we have SEVERAL different groups. In this thread Kelleah and I talk about the differences between Africans and African Americans and even African Latinos, and it's a distinction that is not even validated by white people.
My distinction however was not to dismiss the various cultures of white people, but to dissuade them from using those cultural differences as an excuse for them not being racist. Being "Italian", "Irish", "Jewish" does not mean that you're not racist. Especially in a country where the distinction between those cultures does not outweigh the privlege you have as a homogenous group and how that privilege is often used again people of color as a homogenous group.
I think part of the point of any discussion and potential solution regarding an ism, is that NO ONE can really understand the plight of ANYONE else, without walking a mile in their shoes. This becomes even moreso at the racial level.
I cannot understand your plight any more than you can understand mine. At best its empathy.
One school of thought says that going back generations and generations is one cause of a *major* problem in human relations. It makes everything indefinitely perpetual, and completely unsolvable. Because you cannot ever change the past.
Its not so difficult to look to the middle east to see where unforgiveness of past causes strife for everyone ... every generation ... for many centuries.
Again, you're making huge assumptions about me and my family and our ancestral history. I don't wonder why life is so hard for me as a white person. I don't really wonder about it mainly because I think life is hard for most people, particularly those of us who grew up dirt-ass poor in a country that really dislikes and distrusts its poor. I don't have a "plight"--I have a life. And anyway, I don't really blame Mexicans for discriminating against me; white folks are interlopers in their country, the way I see it.
One of the assumptions that you seem to be erroneously making is that I don't care about racism or believe in equality. I do, very much, and have done and continue to do the best I can do to alleviate injustice of all kinds where I find it. But making assumptions based on anyone's skin color is not something I think leads to equality.
Also, I have considered the inherent racism in the phrase "white trash." But of course other racial and socioeconomic groups have similar terminology to separate themselves from members of their own race/ethnicity who are poorer than they are. White folks are not the only ones who do this.
I do wonder about this great white privilege. What do you think being white has afforded me that you've not been afforded? Or even my family, historically?
Also, I'm pretty sure my Jewish friends would find your characterization of them as having been traditionally in a position of privilege in this country or the world at large to be--well, either offensive or hilarious, depending on the friend. Actually, Irish and Italians faced fairly significant discrimination well into the 20th century, although perhaps not quite on the order of the Jews. Maybe to you we all look the same, but to us, we don't.
For starters, being a white male means that most women think the only thing I want when I talk to them is sex, it also means that they think I'm possibly a pedophile, and that I might rape them if I thought I could get away with it. It also means that people assume that I come from a wealthy family and was born with a silver spoon in my mouth, I actualy grew up in the care of a single mother who would starve herself so that I could eat.
All of these assumptions made about me are based upon my race and gender. which makes them both racist and sexist.
My race and gender has also affected me economicly, It's taken 2 years for me to finally find a job, there where many times I was refused a job because I wasn't female (getting a part time retail job is damn hard for us menfolk, even though their ideal if you're going to university), and certian other times when I was refused a job because I was white (apparantly you have to be asian to work at a fast food joint that serves chinese food of any description).
But I'm not here to compare who's suffered worse at the hands of racism, Cause I really don't give a shit. everyone is a little bit racist, and the sooner people can admit it and get over it and move on with their lives the better.
It's not my responsibility or the responsibility of any other white person to fix problems with racism, you say my ancestors fucked up? Well if we have a look at whats going on in Africa (black millitias commiting genocide on other black people) or Japan (a Government sliding towards millitary facism and xenophobia) or China (a Government that circumvents UN protocol by declaring anyone who supports democracey as mentally ill) then I'd say that it's fair to say everyone's ancestors fucked up.
I'm tired of being blamed for shit that happened 200 years ago and in reality has little effect on how you're treated today, EVERYONE in you're average western country that has equal rights is empowered to make a difference in their own lives, If minorities want things to be changed then they should do it themselves, rather than getting us to do it for them, everyone has their own problems to deal with.
On a side note, if I see someone being racist or sexist I'll be telling them to shutup. But in no way will I be asking people how I can make their lives better, thats their responsibility, not mine.
"Again though, there are several different kinds of Caucasians, that was never denied. However that distinction is very rarely afforded to people of color." Just like it's rarely afforded to anyone, you know why? 'Cause nobody cares, Black people don't care that I'm half British and 1/8th Spanish, and I don't expect them too. Just like I don't care if they're from the Democratic republic of Congo or Egypt.
Oh goodness yes, there are wars still being fought from Biblical times. The point was this utopian view of America isn't going to happen because of the inequity upon which this country was founded. There's going to be unfairness, no one denied that. I'm not saying it's right, I'm simply saying it is. There is too much stress and hurt feelings, and retaliatory feelings, and just a lot of bad will for people to just "let it go" and "move on".
Ultimately that's probably what it's going to take. POC saying, "we've had enough" and just throwing up our hands and saying "you win... again" and pretending to forget everything that's been done up to this point. It's not going to happen and you have to respect the reality of that.
I'm not here to necessarily tell you how to make things perfect, I'm here to tell you how to get by. As POC have been doing for hundreds of years.
Thank you so much, I'm really glad you enjoyed it and took so much from it!
I never made any of the assumptions you said, but I will clarify when saying "you" in most of these comments, unless it's something specific I mean a general "you" and I do apologize for the confusion.
I understand your defensiveness and accept that, and I'm not interested in getting into semantical arguments about what YOU personally have experienced because this is not about YOU personally. We're not comparing out of all thre readers who has it worse, we're talking about the national climate of this country. In the very post I flat out say that I don't know you or your situation. Instead of taking this personally it would behove you to open yourself up to a wider view.
Now, if you feel my entire post is in vain because you don't believe in white privilege and you think that reverse racism exists, then that's your decision. I would like to know how you plan to use that information to a) become less racist, and b) fight racism on a greater level. It will be good to have something to tell others who share that view (even if I've misintepreted what you said, I know many who think exactly that and it will be interesting to hear more about it).
Never said that, in fact the opposite, in fact, the very and exact opposite. I did say it wouldn't matter. The only people that can be racist in America are white people, though everyone has the ability to be racially discriminate.
And yes, I understand you're tired of getting blamed for something that your ancestors did, but again, you currently have the ability to revel in a power structure that others do not simply because of the color of your skin.
If white people are currently in power then it is THEIR responsibility to equally distribute and contribute to balance the power. That's not something that we as people of color can do. Not unless white people concede. On a personal level, what you do may not effect me, but it will effect others. Giving yourself an out of "personal responsibility" doens't make it true. You share this life and this Earth with several other people, you are responsible to an extent for everyone's well being, whether it be generally not being racist, not killing someone, making sure to recycle, paying your taxes, whatever.
Point the first: I'm specifically speaking about America, which I've been very clear about and I apologize if there was confusion. In America there has been no racism on a national level against white people.
Point the second: I think St. Patrick's Day would beg to differ ;) And Italians have a rich history, and in fact there are several museums in Ne for Germans from Russia. So yes people do care about the different kinds of white.
However a lot of ethnic groups aren't afforded the same courtesy. Koreans/Chinese/Japanese are often grouped as simply Asian or Chinese. Puerto Ricans/SanSalvadorans/Mexicans are grouped as Latinos. Anyone with dark skin or African is grouped as Black. And lets not talk about the classification of "Indian"! But yeah, it happens.
Rubbish, anyone can vote, and anyone can run for positions of power in democratic politics. the only candidate who is black that I know of in America is Obama, and there arn't any in Australia. Blaming white people for you're races lack of effort is the biggest cop out ever. It's not our responsibility to make you vote or participate. And the fact that George bush is currently the president of the united states goes to show that white people don't vote or participate enough either.
Explain to me how my vote is magically worth more than yours? Does you're being black mean you are any less capable of starting you're own political party than I am? NO.
"If white people are currently in power then it is THEIR responsibility to equally distribute and contribute to balance the power."
I am not responsible for the actions of politicians I didn't vote for. Blaming White people for the actions of John Howard or George Bush is like blaming Germans for the existance of Hitler. If you don't like them, then you should've voted for someone you did like, if there was no one you liked, then you should have started you're own political party, and if you're too lazey to do that, well thats your own damn fault.
"Giving yourself an out of "personal responsibility" doens't make it true."
Thats exactly right! So why don't you take some responsibility for yourself and fix your own problems?
Copout. Pretending bad stuff dosn't happen anywhere else dosn't mean it dosn't actualy happen, OR that it isn't relevant.
"However a lot of ethnic groups aren't afforded the same courtesy."
They are in countries where their population is dominant. In china they celebrate chinese new year and the mooncake festival, in Israel they celebrate hanuka, I'm pretty sure they Don't celerbrate St Paty's day in Africa. Obviously countries with majority racial populations will celebrate that majorities public holidays. But look on the bright side, there's nothing stopping you from celebrating your cultural fetisvals, or even partaking in those of races not you're own. Wich is more than what I can say for people celerbrating christmas in china, who would most likely cop a beating and then be sent to a rehabilitation camp.
I don't see how people celerbrating St paty's day will magically make them bother to care about wehter or not a white person is irish or not.
I think ultimately I am not getting at "acceptance" or "throwing hands up" or as a means for getting by. I am looking towards actual forgiveness of things that just *cannot* be changed. The past.
The sooner people can get over the past, the sooner we can actually work on a real solution to the present. And I do not believe that requires anyone to deny their culture. There is a difference between forgiving and forgetting.
There are a lot of problems caused by the current attempts to "correct" isms. Mostly because they *do not* include forgiveness. And also because the current solutions are nothing more than isms themselves. This is not a real solution.
Even worse. At this time in our country, one can argue that there is finally a generation of whites which are sick of the racists attitudes of our forebearers. There are quite few people that want a solution. However, when the Majority starts to encounter the current solutions, and see that *they* are now the targets of discrimination ... they will eventually say "Aw Hell No! We are the Majority!" and all progress will be lost.
That is what scares me most. The white people on the fence getting sick of being punished for things they didnt do.
Finally, since it has come up so frequently in these replies ... I think the critical thing to really look at is again ... at the individual level. When you start looking at things on a national level, you are already inherently going to apply stereotypes and generalizations across the board. Which is the problem with all isms.
Change the way you interact with individual people. And you will change the way the world works. Its not quick. But it will work. And it combats the fundamental problem of isms - the lack of acknowledgement of the individual.
Also, you're forgetting that a lot of the changes requested by people of color are because white people set up a system that was nearly impossible to crack. Black people should never have not been allowed to vote, and have fought for it for years and years, it took white people giving in to make it happen.
The only way we can obtain rights on our own is to establish our own political system and take white America to war. But no one wants that, we want to work together, but white people are currently in control and they have to be willing to give that up to make things work.
And have you met an Irish man on St. Patrick's day? I know you're having fun with semantics, but come on, there's not a soul that wouldn't claim Irish on that day if they were.
Hi Zack. I didn't read StickyKeys' comment as a copout. I thought she was setting limits around this discussion for the purpose of clarity and precision. No one can comprehensively cover a subject as complex and far-reaching as racism in a single blog post or thread. For the purpose of exploring a particular position thoroughly and fairly, it makes sense to limit the scope of the conversation, rather than going off on tangents, no? It prevents misunderstanding and non-constructive argumentation.
So why don't you take some responsibility for yourself and fix your own problems?
I don't think I've heard StickyKeys say she doesn't require this of herself. I have heard her say that we all bear some responsibility for one another in this world. I don't think that's a particularly controversial position, really. Some of us are circumstantially better positioned to address some problems, that's all. Who can dispute that? We may disagree on who bears the most responsibility for fixing specific problems (i.e. exactly who is circumstantially the most privileged in a particular situation) and sometimes that smacks of passing the buck, but the basic principle is sound, yes? On a personal level, I know most of us do what we can. Listening to one another actively and openly is a big step here, it helps us see a bigger picture beyond our own backyard.
I live in Australia.
I've written about it several times independent of this blog tha the key is ultimately going to be forgiveness, and people know this. Thing is, we're still kind of waiting for an apology, and then actions of showing that apology as valid. That's why I don't think race relations are going to be completely healed in our lifetime. There's still so much pain and ill will and hatred floating around. Once it gets time to settle we can start the healing, but there's going to be some major shenanigans until then.
Which is also why I specifically addressed whites who have been fighting and have faced opposition from both sides. It sucks, but persevere because it's better for everyone in the long run.
Hmm, I understand what your points are, but I don't know how to address them from your point of view. Are you familiar with voting discrimination history and race history here in the states in general? Or is it what they've taught you in school, cause I can tell you right now, you're missing a lot!
I don't know much about voting discrimination in the States, but as far as I can tell black people have the vote now.
woman. American.
A lot of voters are unaware of these dealings and vote for the same candidate over and over without question because of their long histories. There have even been instances of dead candidates winning office because of the apathy of their voting sectors. Work is being done, but it's a hard, long integrated system and its roots are deep.
I absolutely loved this!!!
It frustrates the hell outta me when I hear people say that race is no longer an issue, that the movement/struggle is over, and choose to completely avoid any kind of conversation or debate on it.
It all has to be said, no matter how blunt or 'un-PC' it may be, otherwise we're just all going backwards.
If the only people who are getting out and doing something are the racists (by being openly and vocally racist) then it creates an environment where racist decisions flourish. In that way it is the responsibility of other people to do something. If you think the best person deserves to win regardless of race then helping to create a non-racist environment benefits your position as well - you get better candidates to vote for because they're not chosen purely for the colour of their skin. And the same goes for sexism.
"I would like to know how you plan to use that information to a) become less racist, and b) fight racism on a greater level."
So, is this aimed at me personally? Or do you mean, oh, people like me? Because if this is not aimed at me personally, it certainly sounds as though it is. And if it is, then you have just called me, personally, a racist. My "POC" husband will find you hilarious. Of course, he would find the characterization of himself as a "person of color" hilarious, because he thinks this whole line of argument is pretty bogus. Ha. Maybe I'll start calling him the "person of color" around the house.
Oh, yeah, I know marrying an "Asian" (we'll just call him that, since I doubt you can tell the difference between Asian nationalities) doesn't mean I'm not a racist. Sure, I know that. My problem isn't really that you think I'm a racist; I don't care all that much what names you want to call me (and, actually, when it comes to that, I am a racist--I prefer "Asian" people to honkies). My problem is that I think you're a racist. You say only white folks can be racists in America? Uhh...Do you have anything at all to back that statement up with? Or do you just take it as axiomatic, the same way you take "white privilege"?
I know this isn't about who suffered worse, and I thought I made that clear by asserting that I don't classify what happened to me/us as "suffering." My point is that you said that only people of color have suffered or could ever suffer racism in America, and that's just out and out bullshit. The point isn't whether the Jews in America have suffered more or worse than the blacks or the Chinese; the point is that they are a counterexample to your point that we are all just "white" and are therefore "privileged" and exempt from being the victims of racism. My point is, further, that by looking at a white person and seeing "power, privilege, racist, not ethnically distinct" you are not only being a racist, you are scooching thousands of years of history (and hundreds of years of American history) under the rug, but you then trot out portions of American history that are convenient to your argument when it applies (mainly) to blacks. And, I'm sorry, but whatever color you are, wherever you come from, whatever your point is, that shit just don't fly with me, sister. If your history counts for your feelings of being oppressed today, then so does everyone else's.
I'm not "colorblind"--not at all, and I agree with you that this alleged "colorblindness" is a disrespectful farce. But I believe in fairness and justice and respect, and I don't believe that the end to racism will come via more racism (i.e., racism of the sort that you're dishing out). I also agree with you that the political system is currently skewed (in some places more than others) against the black vote, but Zack doesn't really know about how our voter districts are divvied up or the various voter fraud schemes or black people being asked for ID that they don't have more often than white people. It's also skewed very heavily against the Chicano vote in some places, and that situation is getting much worse rather than better with all the anti-immigrant hysteria going on. Heh--although, ironically, Chicanos are usually counted as "white" in census and other polling data. And of course a lot of them want to keep it that way because of their own prejudices against Indian blood and mestizos.
Sorry--I'm rambling. The fact is that I have given a lot of thought to all kinds of racism. I think you're a racist because you employ all the standard tropes of racism. I also think you're condescending--"I've heard your issues." I love it. Oh, no...you haven't even begun to hear my issues. But if you're going to playact at being smarter and more thoughtful than I am, then stop saying things like "semantical arguments" because it makes it harder for me to take you seriously as a rhetorical opponent.
Now this line: "In the very post I flat out say that I don't know you or your situation." Mm, yes. And then you go on to say that it doesn't matter because we're white, so we have privilege, and our personal situations having grown up discriminated against or dirt poor or whatever have no bearing on the fact that we have this great privilege over you (personally? or your race?), and so, in essence, you have negated the implied effect of your statement that you don't know our situation. In effect, you've said, "I don't know and I don't care, because at heart, you're all the same." In effect, you're saying that the different ethnicities among POCs matter, but ours don't. The personal stories of POCs matter, but ours don't.
If I may get theoretical for a moment, basing this type of argument on alterity per se is destructive of the result you're hoping to get. If your hope is that we may all appreciate (I prefer 'respect' to 'appreciate' personally) color (and ethnic, I hope) differences in the future, then basing an argument in favor of that ON those color differences simply plays into the same dichotomies of the "racist" power structure you seek to overthrow. Employing the same tired tropes of racism, the same reductionist I/You relationship to the Other, is going to get us nowhere. You want to end racism? Seek the I/Thou (yea, even with the dreaded whitefolk), refuse to participate in the imperialist tropes, deconstruct the black/white dichotomy. Tear shit down, rip it up, make it new. Do it. I'll gladly help (I've already started by writing lengthy papers that do, in fact, point out and deconstruct the racist tropes in literature and in public discourse), if you can get down off your high horse and see me as a person with a story and a history instead of as a skin that can't tan.
Or, do as the "Asians" and just quietly work your ass off and make your situation better. They're POCs, are they not? And yet their situation (in this country) is improving by almost every measure, despite or in the absence of white racism.
And what you're doing is not trying to understand, but trying to use volume or stridency to get your point across. Believe me, most Americans don't have an understanding of race and privilege at anything near a considered level. I imagine it's unlikely you've gotten a more nuanced version of our history, given your distance from it.
Right now, you're speaking with a voice of uncompromising authority about a culture you've never lived in, about an experience you've never had. It's unbecoming, because it's incredibly arrogant. Can you speak authoritatively about what it's like to be an astronaut? To be any olympic athlete? To be a coal miner? To be a bartender? To raise a family of four kids?
Wouldn't it seem ridiculous if you said you knew more about those things than anyone who'd done them, who'd lived those lives? If someone tried to tell you the most expressive and flexible language for implementing an efficient Fourier Transform, but they'd never studied math or ever programmed a computer, wouldn't you think they were, at the least, somewhat presumptuous?
It can't hurt to ask questions instead of make declarations. You're throwing out facts that, while certainly true, provide nowhere near a complete enough picture of life experience to be used as the sole basis for evaluation.
"Right now, you're speaking with a voice of uncompromising authority about a culture you've never lived in, about an experience you've never had."
Yeah you're right, I've never experienced Racism before, never ever. All those examples I gave in my comments obviously don't count 'cause they didn't happen in America, and America as we all know, is the only place that matters in the entire world.
Here's what I said: You're making statements about a culture you've never experienced.
Here's what you replied with: A false accusation that I said you've never encountered racism, which is actually quite beside the point, and then some weird false baseless assertion that I think American culture is the only culture that matters.
The fact that your reply is so hostile, insistent, and willfully intellectually dishonest is a pretty good indication to me that you came to this conversation to fight, not to have a discussion.
Sorry, but that's lame.
I like how you conveniently left out the second half of your sentence in your last comment. I'll put it in bold and underline it in case you missed it the second time I've quoted it. "ABOUT AN EXPERIENCE YOU'VE NEVER HAD".
Which makes my accusation not that false at all, cause you know, thats what you said.
"and then some weird false baseless assertion that I think American culture is the only culture that matters." Yeah sorry about that, I'm just getting that kinda vibe from most of the discussion around here, Cause last few comments made in response to me where along the lines of "I'm not interested in the goings on in other countries, I'm interested in America. That's what this whole thing has been and will always be about from my side. America, that's it." But I shouldn't have assumed that about you.
may I give you a hug for being a good writer/commentator? ((hug))
Female. 56. White.
I try, in my little corner of the world, to make a dfference. Maybe the little bits matter. I hope so.
thank you for writing this.
I know, and the concept that talking about things that will make this country better is "polically incorrect" is always so hilarious to me. Wouldn't that be the most politically correct thing to do?! Heh, oh God bless America ;)
Thanks for reading and replying!
I'm not interested into getting into personal semantics arguments with you, that was not the intent. The question of how we end racism while denying white privilege and validating the existence of reverse racism was one I wanted your feedback on, but again, not specifically about you. It was about the way I interpreted your ideas.
Now I've offended you personally, and I'm sorry about that, but the fact you were so put out should give you a bit of perspective that we obviously have different viewpoints on the matter and cause you to wonder why I feel the way I do. I could go down a list of experiences, but on a universal level those aren't important.
I hate playing the "anything they can do you can do better" game, but one thing I will say is that Asians came to this country with their own language and own set of instituted culturalisms. They first segregated themselves and are slowly making their way into the political infrastructure and they are definitely to be applauded.
I can't say that African Americans are capable of this at the current time.
1. Dial back the attitude. You may feel defensive, but no one here has been untoward with you and they deserve the same respect. The overt sarcasm just isn't necessary.
2. I did specifically write this from an American perspective, I believe Anil was talking about the way you forcefully (and yit was) came in with a view of "how things are" from an Australian perspective with very little knowledge or experience about this this country.
We can argue and discuss and debate, but semantical arguments are a straw man argument at the very least, and at the most it takes away from the original point.
At it's base Anil was asking you to stop being so declaritive about things you don't know about. In return you asked him for some sympathy given your situation and what you have experienced in terms of racial discrimination.
Let's start fresh and use that as a jumping off point, okay? Thanks to both of you for your varied and valued input, I just want to keep an atmosphere of learning and not of fighting.
Point is, people make all kinds of assumptions. Your job is to prove them wrong. Nobody is going to do that for you, and they really shouldn't.
A good story: Ben Stein is sitting at dinner at the White House. The guest next to him is a black woman who he has not met before. He uses his standard ice breaker, and asks her what her father does for a living. She makes a frowny face and says, that's a hard question, because my father ditched us when we were small, and my mother raised us. We were very poor, but look at me now, here at the White House! They both agree that America is a land of opportunity for ANYONE who is willing to work hard. I agree. God bless America.
If your self worth is only skin deep it will show.
You raise good points, but I'd like to address some things too:
"Point is, people make all kinds of assumptions. Your job is to prove them wrong. Nobody is going to do that for you, and they really shouldn't. "
It's one thing to assume, but it's another to assume a negativity purely because of the color of your skin. If I got to the store and I see a checkout girl, I assume she's going to help me get my groceries. If I go to the store and refuse to go to the black or latina cashiers then you have a problem.
It is not my job as a woman with big breasts to "prove" to any man whether or not I'm a slut. It's an unfair stereotype and one that has absolutely no basis in reality. Those are the kind of racial factors I'm talkign about, the ones that are based purely on myth.
"They both agree that America is a land of opportunity for ANYONE who is willing to work hard"
And this is definitely true, but currently you have a section of people who are not allowed access and have to work harder just to obtain basic privileges, and it's not a system that needs to be in place. If you can make it easier for everyone then why wouldn't you?
"If your self worth is only skin deep it will show."
It has shown my dear, take a look at history. Deep psychological abuse has been done to people of color in this country and much of it has been based on that very concept. If you were taught that your self worth is only skin deep then it's going to take a lot to not only undo that training, but to get it out of the minds of our children. It's a process, and one I hope posts like this can help foster.
Sitcky and Anil -
But if we are asking people not to talk about things they have no direct experience with, how can we actually discuss what it is "like" to be some other race? Specifically, how can you discuss white privaledge, when you have never experienced what it is like to be white? I cant really talk about being a POC, cause Im not. At best, we can only talk about our own race.
Im all for limiting the discussion to a somewhat manageable scope (aka one country). So lets keep it at that ... instead of introducing "dont talk about what you dont know" confusion.
I dont think there is a difference in the assumptions, at a fundamental level.
Biologically speaking, people are probability machines. They have to make stereotypes and generalizations based upon previous input. That is the general way we are engineered to learn. For survival. (this is even evident in animals).
The fundamental problem is when you let those assumptions override directly observable truth. And you act well beyond the means of your input.
Animals are hardwired to be, at the very least, leary of things that are different than them. The easiest way to discern this is through appearance. We all know it. And we all know that this is our roots as humans. Some of us just try more actively to rise above it.
Finally, you have to understand (or at least I hope you try) ... that experience dictates for a *lot* of white people that POC are not to be trusted. That you *should* look at them with a careful eye. And this is not just myth or hearsay.
As a white person, growin up in a larger city ... you learn that there are certain areas you just *do not go*. And it is more about the color of your skin than the generalized crime rate in the area. Everyone is at risk there because of the crime rate - but you are more at risk because of the difference in your skin color.
Unfortunately, white people just do not have a lot of experience being the minority in an area that isnt also riddled with crime. That is just the current state of affairs in our country.
Maybe that should be something for POC to work towards? A *healthy* community in which they are the majority.
I'm slightly confused by this blog. White people have more privileges than minorities because they are the majority. Thats usually the case when you are the majority and the other is the minority, isn't that kinda "elementary" as they say in America?
Yes White people get a easy deal if they have white skin in western/europe, while non-whites get a harder time. Thats just the same for all countries, if the minority was suddenly the majority you would have exactly the same racial landscape because its a humanistic attribute that we group to those that we have similarities with. This is again a hard truth, in other places if whites were a minority they would get an equally hard deal.
I think Black people are just as racist and ignorant as white people. If black people are also suffering from these failings and they are inturn racist or ignorant to the other minorities. Does that make them even worse than the "white folk"? To propergate the intolerace oneself has just faced to another is such a crime in my eyes it doesn't deserve any chance for forgiveness. It displays levels of stupidity far outreaching anything designed for humans.But this example is not exclusive to anyone but should be applied to everyone!!!! Is this an unfair comment? Whats the the point of this post? i really cant understand what it brings to the ethnic table thats not already there.
why should a "whitefolk" apologize for something his great great grandpa did when he wasnt even born because his grandpa was involved in the slave trade or War in the far east during the opium wars? Hell, the white folk kid wasn't even born and probs wouldnt even get on with his grandpa if he was alive. Forcing whitefolk to feel obliged to repent for somethings they DIDN'T do PERSONALLY is STUPID. Should they be enforced with the duty to put things right when they didnt even cause the problem of in the first place???? Seems unfair to me.
For white people who are very privileged as you "assumed" to take an interest in rights is a very very big step and if i was one of them and read your post i would gain nothing from your aggressive manner.
Should the N-word be removed? well who uses the N-word? Whitefolk? blackfolk? any-folk? seems to be like a stupid question since part of it is
subculture and which FOLK formed this ? for "folks" sake what is the point of this blog other than to educate whitefolk that the rest of the minorities are having a hard time? This really does seem like a moaning post with a big hint of finger pointing about how unfortunate minorities are. I think ALL minorities will have the same problem regardless of race.
I can now understand how a country with folks of black,white,yellow,brown,green and purple voted TWICE for a man to be president, who has the intellect of an epileptic hamster after it has just watched a britney/50cent MTV video.
Stop the When/Who/What/Should happen. Instead ask WHY....
I have no intention of making this into a keyboard battle of retorts and such, i just feel disappointed somehow.
We pledge unity for all countries and yet every 4 years we compete with each other based on lines of our countries to see WHO is BEST!!! They say humans have advanced but last time i looked, humans have arms , legs and do all the bad things just like they did a long long time ago. nothing changes.
But if we are asking people not to talk about things they have no direct experience with, how can we actually discuss what it is "like" to be some other race?
Not "don't talk", but "don't make definitive and declaritive statements about a situation you don't fully grasp". It's an important distiction. Talk all you want, but as a white man in Australia, don't tell a black American woman how she can make life better for herself.
Suggest, yes? Ask why, yes? But don't declare you have the answers when you don't, you know? If there were clear and definitive answers there would be no problems.
Finally, you have to understand (or at least I hope you try) ... that experience dictates for a *lot* of white people that POC are not to be trusted. That you *should* look at them with a careful eye. And this is not just myth or hearsay.
To an extent. These experiences, if they actually happened and weren't just used to fuel and feed a myth, were retaliatory. Salves railing against their masters, the black panthers physically protecting what was theirs. So no, an average group of black people is not dangerous. An average group of angry black people are. And to that extent and angry group of any kind of people are.
A lot of the assumptions about people of color have solely to do with myth and are the result of these myths never being debunked. So much so that people of our community believe in them. It goes much farther back than what you're assuming.
Before I reply I need you to read the comments. Just about every point you've brought up has been addressed. The "whitefolk" terminology is a little joke based on the livejournal community "blackfolk" and that fact that many black people use "folk" as a colloquialism.
There have been several that have asked and shared and commented with your views and there's a lot of anger in your comment. I suggest getting to a place where you can read it objectively and then read some of the comments. If you have questions after that please let me know and I'll be more than happy to discuss it with you in a civil manner. Thanks for reading, and hopefully at the end we will all learn something.
Thanks for you clarification on dont talk. Its a good subtle distinction to point out.
As for experiences ... the mind really doesnt make the distinction of retaliatory or not at an instincutual level. It takes much more reasoning and awareness to make that distinction. And dare I say ... love. Unfortunately, the time between instinct and reason can mean the difference between life and death, if you are not careful.
And Im not necessarily talking about slaves, and large organized groups. I was specifically referring to ghettos. Not "ghettos" or "bad neighborhoods". But real, honest to goodness *ghettos*, where the standards of living are just about as close as you can get to subhuman in urban settings.
Take Cabrini Greens or the Robert Taylor Homes or the Bronx River Houses (back in the day). Bad to be anyone in those neighborhoods for sure. But *very* bad idea to be white in those neighborhoods. Its just asking for trouble.
I am not assuming anything about the past, because as I have implied before ... its fairly fruitless to dwell on it. It cannot be changed, and does nothing for furthering forgiveness.
But lets not forget that there have been many white people who have died in the name of furthering equality too. Those are also white people's ancestors (none of mine, cause we werent even *here* yet).
In large part, our country went to civil war over race relations. One way to look at this is that the Majority - the people in power ... fought bloodily against their own race, in part to further equality. Im not sure, but I doubt there are too many examples in history where this has happened.
And that should count for something, if we must bring up the past.
And that should count for something, if we must bring up the past.
It certainly does, and I've mentioned that several times. Without advancement from white people we wouldn't have many of the civil liberties we do today. My post is basically saying it's the responsibility of white people to observe that they are control, and then use that control for the embetterment of everyone, and not just those who have the same skin color.
I don't hate white people at all (some of my best friends are white! *grin*), I hate the exclusionary institution that has been set up based on white skin. It gives white people a privilege, but when dealing with some POC it gives them a disadvantage.
Because it's a disadvantage the POC have been dealing with for years, some their entire lives, we're basically asking you to put the butt-hurt feelings on hold and fight anyway. Because you're the ones who can do something and it will be best in the long run.
Girl please! ;) The response has been tremendous (and I'll admit a bit overwhelming), but it's been worth it to really talk to people and see what's really floating out there in the minds of others. It even gave me some things that I need to think about and some counterpoints I need to form for some good defenses.
So thank you so much for suggesting it, it was good getting everyone talking and it's been a wonderful (sometimes frustrating, but in a good way) experience!
That's interesting and kind of sweet. Officially POC only means "people of color" so in reality everyone not "white" would be considered POC. I do think it's good to teach our kids about differences and also celebrating them. I like the notion of have skin color be almost transparent, but still being used to identify a difference.
Instead of teaching her there's no such thing as black/white, you're teaching her from the start to apply definitions to differences and I like that aspect of it. Just make sure that if she comes into contact with racism, you're open and honest about what has happened, and why you feel the way you've taught her is the best. She'll hang on to it forever. Good luck, and thanks for commenting!
She looked at me and said "oooooh, he isn't going to have as many good friends as me!! He is being mean to those people because he is lazy!"
That is fantastic! Ha! And yeah, that's basically going to be how she'll learn. Experiencing the world and balancing that with her teachings and making a decision herself about how she'll live in it. Lovely.
Practically a part time job just to repsond to all the comments, eh?
All this talk about if the majority and minority roles being reversed is the key to change. Hmm. Well, while I do believe that the majority (in most situations) has the power, it takes much much more than that. City of Detroit is the perfect example.
Racism and ignorance are learned behaviors. Known fact. And they can be unlearned. Better yet, not learned at all. How's that saying go? Nip it in the bud. It's a slow process but would be a very effective one. Just one long-term option, perhaps.
Race is definitely an issue and this post is a good example of attitudes surrounding it. So many wrong assumptions made on both sides that keep us divided, like the ones you wrote here "whitefolk have the world on a silver platter" or "I know how whitefolk can be." or "white people generally think they have the answer to everything" Wait a second, Sticky didn't you tell many people commenting that no one can understand another's "plight" without being in their shoes so you shouldn't really try??!!
How can you claim to fully understand the current "white experience" any more than I can claim to fully understand the "black experience"?
Look into the history of all cultures you will find enslavement and pain - all the way back to the Egyptians, who were POC, as you call it. We all have pain in common. All people understand pain. Rather than list differences I'm interested in how we are all alike and how we can make America better for all.
I am disappointed to find just more name calling, anger and judgemental attitudes in this post. Yes, we are different colors, all shades. Yes, we each receive different genetic traits. Yes, we each face our own challenges depending on the family or county we were born to. Yes, ignorant and violent people come in all shapes, sexes and colors. Yes, we can change and be more accepting of each other. Yes, we all have to work at it. I agree, change starts with each of us.
Have YOU really taken stock into how decisions effect others on this planet? Do you hang out with people who spout racist bile? Do you let it slide when one of your friends calls a caucasian a cracker, whitey? Have you stepped outside your circle at all or are all of your friends the same color/income bracket/age/sex as you? If not, then it's time to reexamine.
1. In the very first section I say that when I talk about white people, or whitefolk, etc, I'm talking about the institution of white. I've been very clear about that. I don't know every single white person on the planet, but I know how the system of white supremacy and oppression works. Even in those quotes you pulled there is some level of "some white people" "many white people" "in some areas", etc.
I have only ever claimed to understand the effect of the white experience in America. I never once deigned to translate it's motivations or the scars it can cause to white people. In fact in these very comments I've stated that over and over and in the post as well.
Where is the name calling? Of course there's a bit of anger, that's to be expected given the subject matter, but overall it's a wholly respectful post about a topic that causes many of us to put our backs up.
And I wouldn't have written that last part of your comment without truly thinking about it. I understand that for soem reason your taking my words personally as a slight to you, and I assure you that their not. However if you feel so strongly that I have insulted white people, then please take a moment to estimate why you feel that way and why I've chosen to word my post the way I have. Every angle that you've mentioned is one that I've poured and agonized over. This is hardly the first post like this and I daresay this is the most congenial draft.
I'm more than happy to discuss the content with you, but I really need you to understand what's being said and don't let semantics cloud the issue at hand. The state of white pride has debilitated this country. Do you fit into that sector or not? If you do, is it time for a change? If you don't what can you do to help dismantle the system for the equal empowerment of people of color. That's what this post is about.
Not about me hating white people, or who really held slaves, or how long it's been or any of that. But about the current state of affairs. One that is currently and dominantly ruled by a caste system dependent entirely on the color of skin, that you belong to whether you want to or not, but that you can make the choice whether to feed or starve to death.
City of Detroit is a great example of how racial discrimination against whites works on a local level, but that power imbalance still doesn't translate on a national level, you know? It really takes dismissive legislation and blah dee blah, you know the drill.
I do agree that teaching our kids is really going to be the key, and that ridding this nation of racism is going to be a long arduous process, but it's something that can be done.
In the mean time I think it will take really getting rid of white pride to start. I was having a conversation with a girl about why she shouldn't say the n-word and she went on this entire rant about freedom of speech and civil liberties and I finally asked her, "Why would you want to?" to which she replied, "Well it's not that I want to, but I should be able to say what I want."
I told her she could, in any situation, but it's like cussing out little kids or in church, or talking lewdly about sex in front of your grandmother. It's just not recommended and we'd rather you not. Her pride though was so huge that it stopped being about respecting others personal space and became an attack on her environment and sensibilities.
Having the shoe on the other foot gives you a chance to see what it's like and it's humbling which is why I don't suggest retaliation against whites, but when they do receive discrimination I ask them to suck it up and learn something from the experience. IT's not easy, but nothing worth having is.
Isn't the ultimate goal, be free of these limiting generalities? To define ourselves? To not be marginalized, categorized, treated differently or "less than" by the things we have no contol over, like sex, age, skin color, where we were born?
First paragraph, you speak to whitefolk readers, not "the institution of white" or people who currently hold the power. I am not picking over tiny semantics I am addressing the concepts you wrote about and the words you chose to use so carefully. As you said, you chose those words after much consideration.
More importantly I am suggesting that making general statements about "most whites" or "most blacks" or "most asians" is exactly the reason we find ourselves with a topic called Racism. Classifying a people by skin color and assigning attributes to it as a whole is racist behavior. You, as an individual, wrote at length how you don't like it and neither do I. I don't want to only be so heavily defined by my skin color any more than you do.
My point is to recognize that oppression can be delivered by any color of people on any continent. Oppression, cruelty and violence cross all boundaries and we should stand against it together, not segregate further.
Change starts in the hearts of each person and continues in their actions. The questions you asked about speaking up against racist language, thinking about how our actions affect the Earth and widening our circle of friends are good questions for everyone.
Yes, but it's also not to be blind to those differences. There is nothing wrong with being different and accepting that is the ultimate goal.
Yes, and in the first para I clarify that I'm talking specifically TO them about the institution in which they reside. I'm talking about the world they live in, not about each other specifically.
This I realize and have stated. My concern though is specifically with the national state of white oppression against people of color in America. Other countries have their issues, this is ours. I can't simply dismiss the disparity of rights in this country just because it happens in other countries. Let's be the example that gets people all over the world talking about the way we treat our citizens.
Nationally speaking though, the ending of America's race system lies in the hands of those who began it. You can't deny the privilege you have access to simply by being white, but this also doesn't mean that you a) partake in it, b) enjoy it, c) recognize it, or d) are a bad person. It is what it is, and this post is to help you define your place in that sector and then decide whether or not to make personal change. I can't decide that for you because I don't know you, but I know what the system is and how it works and I talk about that to get you to think about your place inside the system.
If you feel no responsibility than that's fine, this post isn't for you, but I sincerely hope you read it and took more away than "StickyKeys thinks I'm bad for being white and is acting more racist than I know she thinks I am". Because not only is that untrue, but it's counterproductive and probably the exact opposite of my intentions.
My last reply was rushed so I wanted to qualify. I'm not perfect and I'm not always right, I'm more than happy to admit it, but I do have several strong opinions. Some of them you'll agree with and some you'll vehemently oppose, but that doesn't mean you can't learn something, you know?
If I go on about white people it's because I'm angry, or learning, or venting, or trying to understand. "Getting over it" is not an easy process, and while I know the easy answer is the puppy dogs and rainbows and holding hands version of acceptance and tolerance, I also know it's not reality. If it were we'd be there.
So I'm looking at the way things are, looking at how I'd like them to be, and analyzing what can be done to start on that road. I feel the first step is the dismantling of white pride.
I said this above:
"Having the shoe on the other foot gives you a chance to see what it's like and it's humbling which is why I don't suggest retaliation against whites, but when they do receive discrimination I ask them to suck it up and learn something from the experience. IT's not easy, but nothing worth having is."
And I still believe that. It's not a lesson in degrees, or who has had it worse, but in universally being able to sympathize with the experiences of those less privileged.
Now you're not entitled to agree, I don't ask that you do, but what I do ask is then you set your own set of goals for helping to end racism and carry those out.
An interesting and thought-provoking thread and comments! (Although I confess, about 3/4 of the way through the comments, my eyes glazed over and I started to skim instead.)
I am middle-ish-aged and white, so as you say, I can have no real conception of what it's like to be the victim of serious racial prejudice. And even though I am a woman and a Christian, as an American I can't claim to have suffered any real harm from sexism or religious prejudice, either. They both definitely exist, but my life, health, or property has never been in jeopardy as a result of it.
Here is a small post I wrote a couple months ago when the subject of racism came up in another context. It's just some random thoughts...not very profound, certainly.
I'm curious to know how you feel about Bill Cosby's comments taking the black community to task for failing their families, etc. (I can't find a link to the specific comments, so that's just my vague recollection of what he was talking about.)
And also, regarding the political inequities, I can't help but wonder if those in power abusing those not in power are doing so because they're white? Or because they're men?
Maybe I'm just biased, but I have a sneaking suspicion that a black man gets a little bit more respect in general than a woman of any color.
Heh, if only it were so simple.